Get yourself comfy, its a long read :)

In 1937 two brothers in Monrovia, California, started a hot-dog stand at
the airport. Three years later they opened a restaurant, and eight years
after that they customised it with a brand new concept, which they named
The Speedee Service System. Business took off. They were making money hand
over fist. They soon added new restaurants, and before long they had a
chain.

In 1953 they began selling franchises to others. One of the first guys to
buy one was a milk-shake salesman named Ray Kroc. He opened his restaurant
in 1954, quickly became the senior partner in what was a rapidly growing
company, and in 1961 bought the entire thing for a mere $2.7 million.

Ray Kroc did not found the McDonald’s fast food chain; he simply made it
what it became, and this is why so much of the Empire bears not only his
imprint but also his name.

Kroc was a businessman with a savage mentality, one that made him
fabulously wealthy. Like most entrepreneurs, he believed not only in
carving out a share of the market place, but in dominating it. What set
him apart was that state of mind. Others may have been content to absorb
the competition, but Ray Kroc wanted to crush it. Perhaps the most
revealing statement he ever made was on this very subject, speaking about
his competitors. ”If they were drowning to death,” he said, “I’d put a
hose in their mouth.”

In 1988, David Murray took over Rangers, and he brought with him a little
of the Ray Kroc mentality. Murray, like Kroc, was not there at the
beginning of the business; he merely made it what it became, and for a
while it was golden. How close it came to being a runaway success can be
measured by the fact that a mere six years later, the Bank of Scotland
called in the receivers to Celtic Park, and we came within cold inches of
vanishing from the world of football forever. The depths to which we fell
can be measured by hard numbers; in his first seven years at the helm,
Celtic had a fifth place finish in the league, two fourth place finishes
and four third place finishes; yes, you are reading that correctly. In his
first seven years at Ibrox, Celtic did not even make the top two.

Let’s be in no doubt about this at all friends. That man tried to stick a
hose in our mouth.

The year we almost went out of business, we finished fourth in the
Scottish Premier League. The following year, the same. We endured a
further two years of being second best, before Jansen produced the miracle
and we were once again Champions. Having taken the prize he thought would
be forever his, Murray threw more money at his club than has ever been
spent in the history of Scottish football. He famously said “Whoever takes
over Celtic next had better have very deep pockets,” and uttered the line
for which he will forever be famous “For every fiver they spend we will
spend ten.”

In those words lies the core of Murray’s deepest, darkest wish for us. In
those ideas is expressed clearly his yearning that we had drowned, and not
satisfied with almost having done it, he set out to try again. Could
Rangers have survived without Celtic? Murray wanted to find out, and had
he gotten his way we would have been gone.

The publication of the Murray International Holding accounts for the year
up until the end of January 2008 reveals the scale of the reversal in
fortune. The depths of the hole are vast. The consequences could be the
most far-reaching in the history of the Scottish game, and the debate it
has prompted in some quarters is far and away the most interesting in
many, many a long year. Murray and Rangers, wound together so tight they
are inseparable, are drowning in red ink.

In short, could this really be The End of Rangers? And if it is, what does
that mean for us? Has the time now come to stick a hose in their mouths,
and could we survive without them?

Before the question of What If can be answered, we need to examine where
the respective clubs are at the present time, so we can gauge whether or
not this discussion is worthy of serious debate.

Even a perfunctionary glance at the figures quickly brings any person with
a modicum of reason to a couple of startling conclusions, the first being
that MIH really is in serious peril. This is not supposition, nor blind
optimism on the part of a few febrile minds amongst our support. This is
real. Net debt is now hovering at or near the £760 million mark, putting
the assets v liabilities equation perilously close to tipping the whole
organisation into insolvency. Only vastly inflated estimates on the value
of Murray’s real estate holdings are keeping the wolf from the door, and
these numbers reflect the position prior to the global economic crisis,
which has impacted real estate as much as any other sector. Is MIH
actually insolvent at the present time? It is more than possible. Far more
formidable companies than this have gone to the wall in recent months.
Entire banks have been either wiped out or forced to merge with rivals,
Murray’s largest creditor, HBOS, amongst them. These cold, hard facts
can’t be hidden, and their effects cannot be hidden from. MIH is in
trouble.

If Murray International Holdings goes under, Rangers are gone. The ties
that bind are wrapped too tight, one around the other. Only those inside
the Murray Empire know how deep the rabbit hole goes, but it is
inconceivable that Rangers would survive the sudden crash of the edifice
into which they are built. In those circumstances, they would be just
another piece of the jigsaw through which the banks would be sifting
looking for assets to dispose of. Debt ridden, no major source of income
but gate receipts, and those dependant on uncertain success, with a
worldwide reputation in the gutter ……….. only a madman or fool would take
on the remains, and that would leave the club in the hands of the
receivers.

This is more than possible. It is tangibly within reach.

As Rangers debt continues to rise, creeping steadily towards the high
waterline which caused panic throughout the Murray Empire last time, the
pressures from inside and outside that Empire will grow until yet another
crisis point is reached. Last time, a little creative accounting saw
Murray move the bulk of that debt elsewhere. Even if the entity MIH
survives the present crisis, this is a one-time trick that will not be
repeated. In its present form, MIH will never again be able to act as
guarantor to the debts of one of its subsidiaries. With HBOS no longer on
hand to keep the ship afloat, any Murray subsidiary consistently making a
loss will simply be disposed of.

Lloyds will not be as forgiving of their debts as HBOS, not when there
will be considerable pressure on the company to show they can turn the
HBOS balance sheet on its head.

Celtic, on the other hand, are in rude health, not simply posting profit
but reducing debt to the point where we will soon have no debt to speak
of, a position once thought impossible for a successful football club.
Those who talk about a board lacking ambition have missed the big picture
by miles; when the Premiership TV market collapses, as is inevitable, the
issue will not be about which clubs succeed and which clubs fail. It will
be about which clubs survive.

Rangers’ fans have a far greater worry than vanishing from the Earth
entirely though. That is a rare thing in football, and would probably be a
blessing in the eyes of many compared to a far more likely scenario for a
club of their size.

Rangers could end up in administration.

Only four years ago, the former Rangers director Hugh Adam forecast
exactly that when he looked at the three-year plan being floated by then
chairman John McLelland. That plan should have concluded by now, but it
was buried as the ego-mania of Murray brought him back to the fore, and no
sooner had he returned to the top chair but up went the debt again. The
chances of administration have not receded; the situation is now
unmistakably grim.

So, might that be their future course?

This too is impossible to dismiss as mere fantasy. It can happen. It has
happened, and to clubs across Europe who were once considered untouchable.
Fiorentina almost vanished for good in the nineties, and they were not
alone. Leeds United, the most famous example in recent history in the UK,
were Champions League semi-finalists in 2001, with a squad filled with top
class players. Three years later, crippled by debt, every player of any
value whatsoever gone, including their entire crop of youth talent, they
were forced to sell even their training ground to stave off total
financial collapse.

Now a third-tier side in England, they have just suffered the worst result
in their clubs history, a one-nil defeat to non-league Histon in the
second round of the FA Cup.

In England, the administrators have been called in at professional
football clubs 48 times since the year 2000. And here, in Scotland, as if
we need further warnings, Motherwell, Dundee, Dunfermline and others have
been forced to trim their squads by tearing up contracts en masse in
recent years, and Gretna vanished altogether a bare two years after
competing in the UEFA Cup.

The idea that top clubs will end up being bought by wealthy foreign owners
is not as concrete as once was thought either. Both Everton and Newcastle
have For Sale signs up right now, and there is limited interest in either,
and they are Premiership clubs, with the massive European and
international prestige that comes with that tag, and West Ham are known to
be in serious trouble.

Debt brings down football clubs. It’s a fact. The history books are
littered with the corpses. To believe some force could prevent Rangers
from becoming one of them is to believe in the wares of a travelling
doctor’s shop. It is based on blind ignorance and a wilful avoidance of
the facts. To say Rangers are too big an institution, too much a part of
the fabric of Scottish football, for them to crash to such depths is to
ignore that it almost happened to us, the club which brought this land
more glory than it ever dared to dream.

The truth is simply this; had Celtic minded people not been there to pick
us up, we would have been gone because no one else within the Scottish
game was going to come along and lend us their hand. Quite the opposite,
in fact. A lot of people here, including Murray, would have happily stuck
the hose in our mouths and killed us for no other reason than to watch us
die.

If Rangers end up in administration, what happens?

Clubs in administration are not football entities at all whilst they are
in that position. They exist only to reduce debt. In recent years, no less
a figure than John McLelland has stated openly, and somewhat brazenly,
that Rangers will always have debt because of the way the club is run. In
other words, this is a club that in its present form will never be able to
sustain itself in the long-term. This sort of language is the stuff of
nightmares for administrators.

Rangers, as a single business entity, might as well apply for non-profit
status at the moment. Even at the apogee of their latest downsizing, they
were still losing money. Player sales might give them one good year out of
five, profits wise, but despite selling the entirety of their playing
squad, Leeds United still went from debt into administration, and they had
better assets to work with.

Yet, Rangers have downsized in recent years, and the financial results
would still have been horrendous but for the sale of top stars. To
downsize further would mean a vast reduction in the wage bill and the
playing squad, leaving them with the bare bones of a team. In the twenty
years of Murray’s reign there has been one season during which they have
tried to live within such limited means, and they attempted to offset the
decline in talent on the field by hiring the best man they could find off
of it. His name was Paul LeGuen, and despite replacing him late in the day
with Smith, to stave off complete disaster, they finished third in the
SPL.

Right there is the most tangible proof of all that this is a discussion
worth having, and not some flight of fancy. Rangers may survive, in fact
they almost certainly will, as a football club, but the tantalising
question is in what form will they survive?

The decline of Rangers to a point where third place finishes, or worse,
become the norm is a prospect so real it makes my mouth dry. It is right
there in black and white, in the history books for all to see; they have
finished third in recent years when financial problems forced the
downsizing of the playing squad. At present, they are seven points behind
us in the SPL. The self same gap separates Rangers and their closest
rivals, Hearts, for that third place. The press, as ever, focuses on what
Rangers need to do to close the gap on Celtic. They appear to be largely
ignorant of the forces that could tip the club the other way entirely,
towards Hearts and the UEFA Cup spot.

Murray himself supports the conclusion that we may be on the verge of just
such a seismic shift. He talks about January with trepidation so open you
know the worst is being hidden. Players must be sold to reduce the size of
the playing squad. No transfers into the club are planned. Even his
long-term ideas, if such exist, appear predicated on hard times ahead; the
talk is of promoting from within, giving the job to a novice, Ally
McCoist. It is almost hard to believe this is the same chairman who
brought in Advocaat and LeGuen.

In talking about McCoist he is admitting that the financial muscle to
attract a genuine name is no longer at his disposal. If the appointment of
Smith was a backward step, as I have long argued, then giving the job to a
man with no experience at all in the modern game would be gambling with
charcoal dice on a table soaked in lighter fluid where all the assembled
players are smoking cigars. The most combustible part of that scenario
would be the reaction of the Rangers support; if they turned their back on
the club, as has happened on other occasions in their history where there
was no success, the fall in season ticket revenue might offset the
measures being taken to stabilise the balance sheet and then even rapid
downsizing might not save them from the prospect of financial oblivion.

Rangers are in serious peril. This is a fact. The first question therefore
is answered. This is a realistic debate to be having; we really could be
looking at The End of Rangers, if not entirely then certainly as a force
in the game with which we would need to contend for many, many long years
to come. The questions we are left with are these; with the present
situation as it is, should we endeavour to stick the hose in their mouths
and watch them drown, and what would be the future for Scottish football
and Celtic if we did?

I’ll answer the first question simply. Not only should we do it, but I am
convinced there are people within Celtic who are trying to.

Take transfer policy for instance. In recent years, a number of players
initially targeted by Rangers ended up at Celtic Park. Riordan, Miller,
McDonald and Scott Brown are the most obvious. Of the four, two are still
with us, as bankable assets. Miller went on to Rangers, but via Derby, in
a deal which netted us a profit. When he signed he was a free transfer.
Not only did we make money from Miller, we also forced Rangers to buy a
player they initially thought they were going to get for free. In snapping
up Scott McDonald, we forced them to spend £1.5 million on Steven
Naismith, and our pursuit of Brown whilst he was at Hibs was instrumental
in forcing up the price Rangers paid for Kevin Thomson. In signing Glen
Loovens, the man Murray himself admitted was their principal transfer
window target, we forced them to pay an inflated fee for Boughera at
Charlton.

This is not simply about flexing financial muscle either. All of these
players were first-choices for Rangers, and in signing them we forced them
to change well-laid plans and pursue options at a time when the financial
realities had forced them into narrow focus. The hilariously staged
pursuit of Carraciola last year was a convenient cover for the simple fact
that we had blown all their plans by snapping up Giorgios Samaras and
Barry Robson, other players they had coveted.

That McDonald, Robson and Samaras helped us win the title last year is the
icing on the cake. That Brown is blossoming into the midfielder we all
hoped he would be is adding sprinkles. Loovens may or may not become a
star, but he would certainly have improved the defence at Ibrox, which
teeters on the brink of disaster game on game, and which has helped turn
their four point lead into a seven point deficit during a three month
spell, during which, despite being crippled by appalling injuries, we won
every domestic game.

Transfer policy pales into insignificance compared with the damage being
done to their reputation by the consistent good work being done by
websites like this, exposing them for what they are, and, of course, by
men like Peter Lawell and Dr John Reid. Make no mistake about it; the
recent highlighting of The Famine Song was more than an attempt to protect
our name and our Irish fans. It was a cold-blooded, ruthless demolition
job on the standing of that club and its entire customer base at a time
when Murray has all-but exhausted his options and is looking to get out at
the earliest time.

For who in their right mind would take this club on, even if it were debt
free and in good health? The riots in Manchester put their shame on every
television screen in Europe. The Famine Song has exposed the whole club,
from top to bottom, supporters, officials, everyone, to the most ruthless
interrogation since UEFA’s investigations, and even in the face of a
damning verdict they remain staunchly determined in their ignorance. They
are a PR disaster waiting to happen for everyone associated with them.

Is it any wonder the one consortium bid floated publicly in the press was
headed up by a hard-line former Ulster Unionist MP? This gives you a fair
idea of the sort who are likely to be interested in taking the
debt-ridden, scandal wracked institution out of Murray’s control. Only
someone who’s own proclivities match those of the Ibrox faithful could go
into that club with their eyes open and not be appalled. The limits on
their viability as an investment are heightened by the behaviour of their
fans. Dr Reid’s recent statements, in particular, were a source of great
fear by everyone inside Murray’s Empire, and this, of course, was
intended. Dr Reid is not a man who plays to lose; in fact, in his
political life he showed time and time again a ruthless streak Ray Kroc
would have found himself most at home with.

It is very much within Dr Reid’s mentality not simply to stick a hose in
Rangers’ mouth, but to go to the tap and make sure the water is on full
blast so as not to make a mistake and leave the victim alive and kicking
at the finish. This is a man who believes in the Machiavellian creed that
says, “If an injury is to be done to a man it should be so severe that his
vengeance is not to be feared.”

Dr Reid’s other statements bear considerable scrutiny too. When he talks
about our club as an entity separate from Rangers he is openly discussing
a future without their baggage around our neck. More, he is darkly hinting
at a footballing landscape without them in it. He is saying that our
survival, our existence, is not dependant on theirs. He is saying that our
club is not defined merely by the rivalry between us and could do
perfectly well outside of it.

Peter Lawell, perhaps surprisingly considering Dr Reid’s background in the
political world, is subtler about things, but his statements at times
indicate similar thinking, and he never misses a chance to put the boot
into Rangers. How many times in recent years have Celtic released a
statement which seems deliberately timed to embarrass or cast a bad light
on Rangers? Late last season, as the Famine Song debate was gathering
steam outside the press, Lawell nevertheless did not miss a single chance
to make comparisons between our fans and theirs. How many official club
statements were released, praising our fans, shortly following disgusting
displays of hatred by Murray’s blue-shirted storm troopers? How many press
interviews with Lawell have included references to “other less well run”
clubs?

Our two most senior board members are in lock step on this one. The
objective might not be stated in public, perhaps not even in private, but
there is no discomfort with the idea and our policies seem to be geared in
its general direction. Neither man would lose any sleep over The End of
Rangers, and that says enough.

This year’s title win will be decisive in bringing this to bear. If we can
make it four-in-a-row Rangers will be forced into unpalatable choices,
like whether to sack Smith immediately, and who to replace him with if
they do. If not McCoist, then they would need to promise the new coach a
transfer kitty, which is beyond their means. Would they be willing to risk
further debt on the off chance of catching us? Or would the decline become
more marked?

Neither would bring the end at once, but nor would either choice pull them
out of the danger-zone. If four-in-a-row happens, the best they can hope
for is that for the next decade at least they will be at most two bad
seasons away from a situation from which they might not recover. If we
make it five, the end is in sight.

And what would the End bring for Celtic? Undoubtedly, people will say the
clubs are too tangled financially for one to prosper without the other,
and others still will say Scottish football would lose its potency if they
were reduced to an insignificant rump. I dispute both views; I actually
believe both Celtic and Scottish football as a whole would go on to
greater strength without their influence.

Let me take the second point first, that the game in Scotland would be
somehow devalued without them.

In Murray’s first season in charge at Rangers, the challenge came not from
Celtic but from Aberdeen. Looking at the modern day, people may be
forgiven for believe there must have been an enormous gulf between the two
sides; actually, this is not the case. Rangers finished the season on 56
points. Aberdeen finished a mere six points behind them, and yes, back
then a win netted you only two points, and had the present system existed
the gap would have been far larger, but by no means were Rangers out of
sight.

A seven-point gap the following year was reduced to a wafer-thin two
points in the year after that, even as Murray’s financial muscle should
have been putting them on another level entirely. Two seasons when Rangers
won the league by miles were followed by what amounted to a three horse
race in 1993/94. A mere three points separated Rangers and Aberdeen and a
single point separated them from Motherwell, with Celtic a distant fourth,
four points behind the Lanarkshire club and a dismal eight behind the
Ibrox side.

Of course, the year that followed was horrendous in more ways than one, as
Celtic came within an ace of vanishing altogether and the Pittodre club
imploded. They fell from their second spot, and their position as Rangers
principal challengers, to a shattering ninth in the league table and the
fifteen point gap between the Ibrox side and their nearest challengers,
Motherwell, was more than simply a consequence of the change to three
points for a win.

That year, we were fourth yet again, of course.

What changed in Scottish football was not that Rangers outpaced the rest
by miles, but the re-emergence of Celtic as a genuine force. With our
revival in the years that followed (we came within four points of the
title the following season, when under Tommy Burns we lost only one league
game) the balance shifted. With two clubs at the very top, far out of
sight of the rest, the struggle for European places became desperate. The
influx of foreign talent bled our domestic game of youth, and the rest, as
they say, is history.

The break-up of the Celtic-Rangers axis would have positive benefits for
every team in the country. Take Hibs for example. With a genuine chance of
Champions League football, the numerous players who left the club for
other pastures, with many going to Glasgow, might well have stayed.
Certainly, the prospect of European football would have given their board
greater latitude in wages, and thus they might have emerged as a genuine
threat built on youth.

A virtuous circle effect would take hold. Attendances would go up as more
sides saw a chance to stake a claim for that Champions League spot. Teams
would take greater risks on the field if three points put them closer to
that reward, and within a few years the standard of the game here would be
vastly improved.

With no direct challenger to our power, we too would be encouraged to try
new ideas. Youth would truly be allowed to blossom, and in time we might
develop the Ajax-style system we have long talked about and dreamed of.
The old rules would no longer apply; we would not be so focussed on the
endless struggle to stay ahead of Rangers, and that would give us new
focus and a new strategy.

Financial investment in the Scottish game, some of it long delayed as a
result of the hated Old Firm tag and the perception that it is all about
hate, would be encouraged by the end of that despicable term once and for
all.

Eventually, Rangers themselves might recover, as youth would be the way
forward for everyone, but they would do so in a national game utterly
transformed. They would no longer be a principal power, just another club
trying to catch us. Their enforced spell from the top table might also
have the effect of removing once and for all the detritus and filth that
surrounds the club. Maybe.

Soon enough the game in Europe will change, and when the debt that hangs
over the Premiership finally drops like an anvil this process will be not
long delayed, and whilst our immediate future is certainly in the SPL the
more distant future will see us in some form of European League. There we
will have the competition we need to satisfy the fans, and Rangers
remaining relevance, as a team to give us a run for our money, will be
gone with it.

And that, actually, brings me to a final point. Who in the end is going to
argue that providing a challenge to us is reason enough to want to see
Rangers survive anyway? The entire structure of the club is rotten to the
very core, and if they were gone I would certainly not miss their malign
presence or influence on the culture of this country. They are a
detestable organisation in every way.

In the end, I think our ethos and our traditions and our ideology is
strong enough that we can cope with their absence or, at the very least,
their significant weakening. A penniless, powerless Rangers, on the very
fringes of the game, or hampered so terribly that they fell, Leeds like,
into the lower reaches, would be a source of amusement to me and I suspect
to a good many others. Who would not salivate with unrestrained pleasure
at seeing them humbled by the likes of Alloa in cup competition? Who
amongst our number would not be overcome with excitement, or nearly
paralysed by joy, on the day that they were relegated from the SPL for the
first time?

In all honesty, if the worst fate of all befell them and they collapsed
entirely, I would be delighted beyond measure. I would be content to a
Zen-like degree, utterly at peace with the world and all in it. My mood
would be akin to that of a man who has woken from a dream into a reality
that is infinitely better. I would watch with bated breath as the removal
vans came to clear out Ibrox. I would clap my hands with the delight of a
child in a sweetshop as the pitch was bulldozed for a new shiny shopping
centre. My sweaty palms would be clasped together in thanks to God for
giving me the eyes to see the weeping fans laying wreathes and for giving
me the ears that let me tune into the phone-in shows as they paid their
tearful tributes. My happiness would peak at the moment the Rangers sign
was taken from the stone wall and cast into the nearest empty skip.

Gone forever would be the institution that brought forth The Billy Boys,
that gave us The Famine Song, that lorded, arrogant, over the rest of our
game, and stained our culture with its filth. Gone for good would be the
monument to superiority and hate constructed whole out of an ideology of
Empire, built as a reminder to many of us that for a large number out
there, our place here is that of barely tolerated guests and not as
citizens with equal rights.

Napoleon once said “Never interrupt an enemy when he is making a mistake.”
Over at Ibrox they have made plenty of them, both fiscally and in
management style. The rent is about to come due, in a big way, and we have
two choices;

We can stand and watch, and wait, to see what happens, or we can stick a
hose in their mouth.

I’m with Ray Kroc on this one. This is about more than just one title win
or a mere Generation of Dominance. This is about The End of Rangers, and
if ever there was a goal worth shooting for in our history, then surely
that is it. Would they want us to survive such a plight? They wouldn’t.
They didn’t.

I would not mourn them. I would not miss them.

So in summary then, just another sad sack off a celtic forum who is more concerned with his rivals?



It won't be long before insulting one's self is deemed offensive.
---
There are a few people who know they are cool that are cool, there are a few people who don't know they are cool that are cool, but there are many people who think they are cool that aren't cool.

Let me guess, E-Dhims ?



"The weapon performed........adequately."

Joe.

Why post such a rabid piece of shite like that?

Your fishing hat does not suit you.


I dont know where to start with that its such a load of bollocks.

You can see he is trying to be reasoned to start with but soon he makes a factual blunder and then reverts to type by just typing hatred and drivel.

Rangers finished 3rd under Eck, LeGuen took over after that and we finished 2nd under Smith... did the Champions League football the season after not give him a hint????

I'm sorry but I only deal in FACTS.

The whole part on Celtics signing policy to "get it up" Rangers is just absolutely hilarious. There is not ONE player there.. not ONE that I would want at Ibrox.

Honestly Joe.


Why post it?





One day like this a year'd see me right... ;)

http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=10r4lxt&s=5

BigJock wrote:

Honestly Joe. Why post it?

Well, from here, it looks like it's got to you but that could just be me reading this post the wrong way.

Probably is to be honest.

As much of a Tim as I am, that's seriously Hyperbole at it's finest.

I'd much rather read a 1,000 word article by Bill Leckie than that again.



"The weapon performed........adequately."

BigJock wrote:

Joe. Why post such a rabid piece of shite like that? Your fishing hat does not suit you. I dont know where to start with that its such a load of bollocks. You can see he is trying to be reasoned to start with but soon he makes a factual blunder and then reverts to type by just typing hatred and drivel. Rangers finished 3rd under Eck, LeGuen took over after that and we finished 2nd under Smith... did the Champions League football the season after not give him a hint???? I'm sorry but I only deal in FACTS. The whole part on Celtics signing policy to "get it up" Rangers is just absolutely hilarious. There is not ONE player there.. not ONE that I would want at Ibrox. Honestly Joe. Why post it?

LOL because it would probably annoy a few of the 'bears' on here.

Hey dont kid yourself, I know a lot of it is shite but there is some truth in there. Rangers are in the shit financially. FACT!

The Sopranos wrote:

Let me guess, E-Dhims ?

Dunno mate, was passed to me in an email.

Gave me something to read over lunch.

that was verry funny. david murray tried to drown celtic.fuck me, celtic were 2 hours from closing down, you did'nt,it was nothing to do with rangers or david murray, get over it you rabid and bitter paranoid lunatic (whoever you are). you are mad, you need clozaril.

david murray will go, we may become a plc ( i hope not) but we will never be the shitey laughing stock the yahoo's were in the 90's.amen to that.

furthermore.another day...........

Many friends, many other Supporters of FC St.Pauli Hamburg or other german football clubs have been ask why we have a strong affinity to Celtic Football Club and its supporters. Also on several occasions around European Games or home games of Celtic we have been ask by the Celtic supporters themselves why we, as a german and non-catholic, support Celtic ? The answer is on one hand very easy but on the other side not.

Celtic-Supporters are special, they are unique in its behaviour, in their views, political opinions and are mostly tolerant towards other religions, style of living or look. They are proud of their irish roots, their foundation by Brother Walfried but also are not clerical to non-catholics. To look a bit closer what makes Celtic Supporters so special I have to go a bit back in the history of following Celtic, as a German football supporter from FC St.Pauli Hamburg.

In the end of the 80´s the supporters of FC St.Pauli were following their club in the 1st league of Germany for three years and from a crowd of 3.500 it grows up to 20.000. There were a lot squattered houses and a long left-wing tradition in the district St.Pauli, which also influenced more and more the supporters of the club. We were starting to be famous for being alternative, left-wing and bringing new political views (the german stadiums were infiltrated by organised fascist parties and hooligans) to the terraces. The first non-hooligan or –rightwing Football Fanzine was started (Millerntor Roar) and the fight against right-wing, Rascism and Fascism in Football makes us known in whole Europe (the St.Pauli-Fans against Rechts-Sticker were sold more than 2 million times). From London one of the main active St.Pauli-Supporters was invited to speak in front of Football Supporters in England and on this night he first get into contact to Celtic Supporters and it was a long night and the special link between similar football loving people starts. After that he introduced more and more St.Pauli-Supporters to have a look at the people following Celtic and the games in Bern, Ekeren, Neuchatel, Lisbon, Cologne, Dortmund, Paris, Zuerich, Lyon and so on let the friendship between both parts of the supporters growing up. But why do we feel comfortable with Celtic and their supporters ? Beside the contribution of tolerance against other football supporters, the contribution of left political ideas into the conservative and nationalist football scene the development of the fascination of the Celtic Fanscene was formed by another way of facing the club (independent of sporting success).

Normally, for supporters of a football team, the most important thing in their life is success, being top of the league and the best team of the world. The Celtic supporters pay for fight, stake and showing proudness to play for the hoops is as much important as success. In the „unsuccessful“ times of the mid ninties with being second behind Rangers and leaving european cups early, the supporters backed their club and team and gave credit to the players when they tried everything.

They were not booing, yelling their or the opponent team. They give credit to the better opponents and still applaude their hoops. That was impressive at so many games and teach us a lot. The same behaviour Celtic Supporters show in the streets, bars and cities of the european host. They fight against the bad reputation of Football-Fans. Being awarded as best football supporters in 2003 for their behaviour in the UEFA-Cup-Final in Seville was no wonder for us, because this is the way how they behave since years and what makes them so special.

But also they are not like sheeps, who just follow one leader or accept all orders, who won´t stand for their rights. They fight against injustice, police oppression and undue behaviour of their own or opponent supporters. Staying together as a unity as Celtic Supporters against attackers. These could be violent and aggressive attacks by hooligans or violent elements from other teams or attacks of the club board against the views, opinions or traditions of the green and white hoops. The different initiatives, like „Celtic Fans against Bigotry“, „Racism“ or „Fascism“ are good examples.

But not only their own problems are interesting for Celtic Supporters. Also the fights against oppression, for independence movements in Europe or the world is a special thing about parts of the Supporters of Parkhead. This is another positive thing about Celtic Supporters. They are well educated about the movements in Palestine, the Basque Country, Chiapas or South Africa and support them as well as they did for the Irish struggle for decades.

Another impressive and astonish thing is the world wide spreading of Celtic Supporters. Through their irish roots there are Celtic Supporters and Celtic Supporters Clubs in nearly every corner of the world. On a trip through South America i was in a village with 1.500 inhabitants in Bolivia. There was an Irish Pub and the owner was a mad Celtic Supporter. In Seville during the days of the European Cup Final 2003 we met Celtic Supporters with Irish Roots from New York, Australia, Argentina and also the Antarctica (he works there). Through Celtic i first get contact to Irish people from Belfast, Dublin or Derry and they invited me to visit there country.

In a very warm and friendly atmosphere they teach me more about irish history and the herewith attached history of Celtic. Never met a more traditional and historical Club than Celtic. Anywhere in Ireland you meet Celtic Supporters in Celtic Pubs who are organising trips to the games (which are all away games) and have a really strong affinity to the club in spite of hundreds of miles away from Parkhead. Irish people went all over the world in the last hundred years but take their roots and their club with them.

It is fantastic to meet so many different Celtic Supporters from many parts of Europe at the games. On one occasion i went to an Old Firm with a Supporters Club from Dublin and the long line of buses, the crowded ferries were marvellous.

When i firstly visit a game of Glasgow Celtic i was surprised of the friendly and peaceful atmosphere they create in Cologne without giving up their political ideas. It was a mixture of hard drinking, singing, celebrating, behaving like guests in a foreign country and city but still stand to their irish history, for their antirascist opinion and to their tolerance towards their own people and the people which showed up.

They always make us feel comfortable and welcome. I have been travelling through European football a lot and at mostly every club in Europe you find aggressive, scaring people. But the history of Celtic, the irish roots make them behave different. In 1996 we organised a double decker bus to Glasgow for a weekend and a home game of Celtic against Motherwell. The whole weekend was magnificient. There were Irish Rebel Bands playing in every pub on every night and we got in contact with so many Celtic supporters who were also political thinking people and not only consumating football. There was a spiritual kinship. Celtic Supporters form their club, their audience, their life of football.

Many Football Fanzines exist, many fundraising gigs have been organised for different political or charitable reasons, this all makes it more than worth supporting this special club from abroad and be a part of the community around parkhead.

Heiko Schlesselmann (31 years)
Supporter of FC St.Pauli Hamburg since 1985, Supporter of Celtic FC since 1992



mr. schlesselmann cleary does not have to live with his beloved yahoos version of tolerance, peaceful protest and all round open minded pacifism......

lord barneth of rumbleton wrote:

but we will never be the shitey laughing stock the yahoo's were in the 90's.amen to that.

We'll see :)

Another day and another wee wind up to get the weekend started

lord barneth of rumbleton wrote:

Many friends, many other Supporters of FC St.Pauli Hamburg or other german football clubs have been ask why we have a strong affinity to Celtic Football Club and its supporters. Also on several occasions around European Games or home games of Celtic we have been ask by the Celtic supporters themselves why we, as a german and non-catholic, support Celtic ? The answer is on one hand very easy but on the other side not. Celtic-Supporters are special, they are unique in its behaviour, in their views, political opinions and are mostly tolerant towards other religions, style of living or look. They are proud of their irish roots, their foundation by Brother Walfried but also are not clerical to non-catholics. To look a bit closer what makes Celtic Supporters so special I have to go a bit back in the history of following Celtic, as a German football supporter from FC St.Pauli Hamburg. In the end of the 80´s the supporters of FC St.Pauli were following their club in the 1st league of Germany for three years and from a crowd of 3.500 it grows up to 20.000. There were a lot squattered houses and a long left-wing tradition in the district St.Pauli, which also influenced more and more the supporters of the club. We were starting to be famous for being alternative, left-wing and bringing new political views (the german stadiums were infiltrated by organised fascist parties and hooligans) to the terraces. The first non-hooligan or –rightwing Football Fanzine was started (Millerntor Roar) and the fight against right-wing, Rascism and Fascism in Football makes us known in whole Europe (the St.Pauli-Fans against Rechts-Sticker were sold more than 2 million times). From London one of the main active St.Pauli-Supporters was invited to speak in front of Football Supporters in England and on this night he first get into contact to Celtic Supporters and it was a long night and the special link between similar football loving people starts. After that he introduced more and more St.Pauli-Supporters to have a look at the people following Celtic and the games in Bern, Ekeren, Neuchatel, Lisbon, Cologne, Dortmund, Paris, Zuerich, Lyon and so on let the friendship between both parts of the supporters growing up. But why do we feel comfortable with Celtic and their supporters ? Beside the contribution of tolerance against other football supporters, the contribution of left political ideas into the conservative and nationalist football scene the development of the fascination of the Celtic Fanscene was formed by another way of facing the club (independent of sporting success). Normally, for supporters of a football team, the most important thing in their life is success, being top of the league and the best team of the world. The Celtic supporters pay for fight, stake and showing proudness to play for the hoops is as much important as success. In the „unsuccessful“ times of the mid ninties with being second behind Rangers and leaving european cups early, the supporters backed their club and team and gave credit to the players when they tried everything. They were not booing, yelling their or the opponent team. They give credit to the better opponents and still applaude their hoops. That was impressive at so many games and teach us a lot. The same behaviour Celtic Supporters show in the streets, bars and cities of the european host. They fight against the bad reputation of Football-Fans. Being awarded as best football supporters in 2003 for their behaviour in the UEFA-Cup-Final in Seville was no wonder for us, because this is the way how they behave since years and what makes them so special. But also they are not like sheeps, who just follow one leader or accept all orders, who won´t stand for their rights. They fight against injustice, police oppression and undue behaviour of their own or opponent supporters. Staying together as a unity as Celtic Supporters against attackers. These could be violent and aggressive attacks by hooligans or violent elements from other teams or attacks of the club board against the views, opinions or traditions of the green and white hoops. The different initiatives, like „Celtic Fans against Bigotry“, „Racism“ or „Fascism“ are good examples. But not only their own problems are interesting for Celtic Supporters. Also the fights against oppression, for independence movements in Europe or the world is a special thing about parts of the Supporters of Parkhead. This is another positive thing about Celtic Supporters. They are well educated about the movements in Palestine, the Basque Country, Chiapas or South Africa and support them as well as they did for the Irish struggle for decades. Another impressive and astonish thing is the world wide spreading of Celtic Supporters. Through their irish roots there are Celtic Supporters and Celtic Supporters Clubs in nearly every corner of the world. On a trip through South America i was in a village with 1.500 inhabitants in Bolivia. There was an Irish Pub and the owner was a mad Celtic Supporter. In Seville during the days of the European Cup Final 2003 we met Celtic Supporters with Irish Roots from New York, Australia, Argentina and also the Antarctica (he works there). Through Celtic i first get contact to Irish people from Belfast, Dublin or Derry and they invited me to visit there country. In a very warm and friendly atmosphere they teach me more about irish history and the herewith attached history of Celtic. Never met a more traditional and historical Club than Celtic. Anywhere in Ireland you meet Celtic Supporters in Celtic Pubs who are organising trips to the games (which are all away games) and have a really strong affinity to the club in spite of hundreds of miles away from Parkhead. Irish people went all over the world in the last hundred years but take their roots and their club with them. It is fantastic to meet so many different Celtic Supporters from many parts of Europe at the games. On one occasion i went to an Old Firm with a Supporters Club from Dublin and the long line of buses, the crowded ferries were marvellous. When i firstly visit a game of Glasgow Celtic i was surprised of the friendly and peaceful atmosphere they create in Cologne without giving up their political ideas. It was a mixture of hard drinking, singing, celebrating, behaving like guests in a foreign country and city but still stand to their irish history, for their antirascist opinion and to their tolerance towards their own people and the people which showed up. They always make us feel comfortable and welcome. I have been travelling through European football a lot and at mostly every club in Europe you find aggressive, scaring people. But the history of Celtic, the irish roots make them behave different. In 1996 we organised a double decker bus to Glasgow for a weekend and a home game of Celtic against Motherwell. The whole weekend was magnificient. There were Irish Rebel Bands playing in every pub on every night and we got in contact with so many Celtic supporters who were also political thinking people and not only consumating football. There was a spiritual kinship. Celtic Supporters form their club, their audience, their life of football. Many Football Fanzines exist, many fundraising gigs have been organised for different political or charitable reasons, this all makes it more than worth supporting this special club from abroad and be a part of the community around parkhead. Heiko Schlesselmann (31 years) Supporter of FC St.Pauli Hamburg since 1985, Supporter of Celtic FC since 1992

Cheers BarneyBhoy, another great read this afternoon.

Forza St Pauli.

lord barneth of rumbleton wrote:

.

lol!

I scanned the first few lines but that's enough!

I prefer our own 'speshal relashionship' with their city rivals lol!



It won't be long before insulting one's self is deemed offensive.
---
There are a few people who know they are cool that are cool, there are a few people who don't know they are cool that are cool, but there are many people who think they are cool that aren't cool.

Joeboy wrote:

Cheers BarneyBhoy, another great read this afternoon.

scarily i'm sure you believe it.
the yahoo's and st. pauli fans, well suited, what was that cher song the opressed masses took offence to a few years ago.........

Papa Lazarou wrote:

I prefer our own 'speshal relashionship' with their city rivals lol!

yes indeed.

lord barneth of rumbleton wrote:

scarily i'm sure you believe it.

Its a story from a St Pauli fan and his views!!!

Joeboy wrote:

Its a story from a St Pauli fan and his views!!!

okay, i'm sure you get all fuzzy and warmhearted reading it and thinking, 'oh aye, thats us,we are great'.

BigJock wrote:

I'm sorry but I only deal in FACTS.

are you barney in disguise ?
are you barney in desguise ?
are you barney ?
are you barney ?



;)



Primus inter pares

lord barneth of rumbleton wrote:

okay, i'm sure you get all fuzzy and warmhearted reading it and thinking, 'oh aye, thats us,we are great'.

Not at all Barneybhoy, I dont have to, its there in black and white that they love us and the reasons why.

We know it angers you to read these things but dont beat yourself up about it.




[ Last edited 12th Dec 2008 7:44 pm ]

Joeboy wrote:

Not at all Barneybhoy, I dont have to, its there in black and white that they love us and the reasons why. We know it angers you to read these things but dont beat yourself up about it.

do not kid yourseld that i or any rangers fan is angry about this, we are laughing at you, yahoo's lap this stuff up,it's funny.

as for st. pauli fans, your welcome to your special relationship with them, you are well suited.gypsies, tramps and thives (and lefties/terrorists/extremists/bigots).